48 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1999, Canada

Journals of the Senate

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Issue 128

Thursday, April 15, 1999
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker

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The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Corbin, DeWare, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Gauthier, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Pitfield, Poulin, Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan,

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, *Cools, Corbin, *De Bané, DeWare, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, *Fraser, Gauthier, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, *Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Pitfield, Poulin, Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia) , Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, *Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, *Wilson

PRAYERS

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Bills

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, for the third reading of Bill C-43, An Act to establish the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and to amend and repeal other Acts as a consequence.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Bolduc moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended

(a) in clause 53, on page 17, by replacing line 7 with the following:

"(2) Appointments under subsection (1) to or from within the Agency shall be based on selection according to merit as determined by competition or by such other process of personnel selection designed to establish the merit of candidates as the Agency considers is in the best interests of the Agency.

(3) The Commissioner must exercise the"; and

(b) by renumbering all cross-references accordingly.

The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton for the Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Bryden, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson, for the third reading of Bill C-40, An Act respecting extradition, to amend the Canada Evidence Act, the Criminal Code, the Immigration Act and the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act and to amend and repeal other Acts in consequence.

SPEAKER'S STATEMENT

Yesterday's debate on this order was interrupted by points of order. The first point of order was on the question of the motions in amendment being only in one language. That has now been corrected, and the motions are before you in two languages. Nevertheless, I will be doing further work on exactly at what point must we have motions in both languages so that, in the future, there will be a clear understanding in the Senate by all members.

The second point of order was on the question of comments made by the Honourable Senator Grafstein regarding information he received from a judge. I refer Honourable Senators to the Debates of the Senate of yesterday, page 3033. In the left hand column, the fifth paragraph, Senator Grafstein says, in response to the point of order, speaking about his argument:

I say only that it is tangential and I withdraw all my comments.

He repeats later on:

...I will withdraw. I agree with the honourable senator.

On that basis, I take it that the Honourable Senator has withdrawn his comments regarding Judge Arbour. Therefore, we can proceed with the debate.

Once again, I will be doing further study on this whole question of references to judges. It has come up before, and I think we should have a clear understanding as to what are the rules in the Senate. I declare that debate can continue. The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Bryden, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson, for the third reading of Bill C-40, An Act respecting extradition, to amend the Canada Evidence Act, the Criminal Code, the Immigration Act and the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act and to amend and repeal other Acts in consequence.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 44:

(a) by replacing lines 28 and 29 on page 17 with the following:

"circumstances;

(b) the conduct in respect of which the request for extradition is made is punishable by death under the laws that apply to the extradition partner; or

(c) the request for extradition is made for"; and

(b) by replacing lines 1 to 6 on page 18 with the following:

"(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1)(b), the Minister may make a surrender order where the extradition partner requesting extradition provides assurances to the Minister that the death penalty will not be imposed, or, if imposed, will not be executed, and where the Minister is satisfied with those assurances.".

With leave of the Senate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that Bill C-40 be not now read a third time but that it be amended:

(a) by substituting the term "general extradition agreement" for "extradition agreement" wherever it appears;

(b) by substituting the term "specific extradition agreement" for "specific agreement" wherever it appears;

(c) in clause 2, on page 2

(i) by adding after line 5 the following:

""extradition" means the delivering up of a person to a state under either a general extradition agreement or a specific extradition agreement.";

(ii) by deleting lines 6 to 10;

(iii) by replacing line 11 with the following:

" "extradition partner" means a State";

(iv) by adding after line 15 the following:

" "general extradition agreement" means an agreement that is in force, to which Canada is a party and that contains a provision respecting the extradition of persons, other than a specific extradition agreement.

"general surrender agreement" means an agreement in force to which Canada is a party and that contains a provision respecting surrender to an international tribunal, other than a specific extradition agreement.";

(v) by replacing lines 20 and 21 with the following:

" "specific extradition agreement" means an agreement referred to in section 10 that is in force.

"specific surrender agreement" means an agreement referred to in section 10, as modified by section 77, that is in force.";

(vi) by replacing lines 29 to 31 with the following:

"jurisdiction of a State other than Canada; or

(d) a territory.

"surrender partner" means an international tribunal whose name appears in the schedule.

"surrender to an international tribunal" means the delivering up of a person to an international tribunal whose name appears in the schedule."

(d) on page 32, by adding after line 6 the following:

"PART 3 SURRENDER TO AN INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL

77. Sections 4 to 43, 49 to 58 and 60 to 76 apply to this Part, with the exception of paragraph 12(a), subsection 15(2), paragraph 15(3)(c), subsections 29(5), 40(3), 40(4) and para graph 54(b),

(a) as if the word "extradition" read "surrender to an international tribunal";

(b) as if the term "general extradition agreement" read "general surrender agreement";

(c) as if the term "extradition partner" read "surrender partner";

(d) as if the term "specific extradition agreement" read "specific surrender agreement";

(e) as if the term "State or entity" read "international tribunal";

(f) with the modifications provided for in sections 78 to 82; and

(g) with such other modifications as the circumstances require.

78. For the purposes of this Part, section 9 is deemed to read:

"9. (1) The names of international tribunals that appear in the schedule are designated as surrender partners.

(2) The Minister of Foreign Affairs, with the agreement of the Minister, may, by order, add to or delete from the schedule the names of international tribunals."

79. For the purposes of this Part, subsection 15(1) is deemed to read:

"15. (1) The Minister may, after receiving a request for a surrender to an international tribunal, issue an authority to proceed that authorizes the Attorney General to seek, on behalf of the surrender partner, an order of a court for the committal of the person under section 29."

80. For the purposes of this Part, subsections 29(1) and (2) are deemed to read:

"29. (1) A judge shall order the committal of the person into custody to await surrender if

(a) in the case of a person sought for prosecution, the judge is satisfied that the person is the person sought by the surrender partner; and

(b) in the case of a person sought for the imposition or enforcement of a sentence, the judge is satisfied that the person is the person who was convicted.

(2) The order of committal must contain (a) the name of the person; (b) the place at which the person is to be held in custody; and (c) the name of the surrender partner."

81. For the purposes of this Part, the portion of paragraph 53(a) preceding subparagraph (i) is deemed to read:

"(a) allow the appeal, if it is of the opinion"

82. For the purposes of this Part, paragraph 58(b) is deemed to read:

"(b) describe the offence in respect of which the surrender is requested;" and

(e) by renumbering Part 3 as Part V and sections 77 to 130 as sections 83 to 136; and

(f) by renumbering all cross-references accordingly."

After debate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs for the Honourable Senator Bryden moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin, that further debate on the motions in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Reports of Committees

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Forrestall, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, for the second reading of Bill S-19, An Act to give further recognition to the war-time service of Canadian merchant navy veterans and to provide for their fair and equitable treatment.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Reports of Committees

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the Ninth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (independent Senators) presented in the Senate on March 10, 1999;

After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division. Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kelly, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, for the adoption of the Report of the Special Committee of the Senate on Security and Intelligence, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on January 14, 1999,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Report be not now adopted, but that it be amended by deleting recommendation No. 33; and

That recommendation No. 33 be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders for consideration and report.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Corbin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 5 to 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other

Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton calling the attention of the Senate to the Budget presented by the Minister of Finance in the House of Commons on February 16, 1999.

After debate, The Honourable Senator LeBreton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 45 (motion), 63, 69, 58, 59, 67, 50 (inquiries), 114 (motion), 34 and 39 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Roche calling the attention of the Senate to the election of Canada to the United Nations' Security Council for 1999-2000, and Canada's role in contributing to peace, global security and human rights in the world on the eve of the new millennium.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Grafstein calling the attention of the Senate to the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association (OSCE) Delegation to the Standing Committee Meeting of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE PA), held in Vienna, Austria, from January 14 to 15, 1999 and the situation in Kosovo.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 64, 49, 44 (inquiries) and 1 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Kinsella calling the attention of the Senate to the Responses to the Supplementary Questions emitted by the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights on Canada's Third Report on the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Forrestall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Simard, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins:

That there be laid before this House all documents and records concerning the possible privatization of DEVCO, including:

(a) studies, analyses, reports and other policy initiatives prepared by or for the government;

(b) documents and records that disclose all consultants who have worked on the subject and the terms of reference of the contract for each, its value and whether or not it was tendered;

(c) briefing materials for Ministers, their officials, advisors, consultants and others;

(d) minutes of departmental, inter-departmental and other meetings; and

(e) exchanges between the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Finance, the Treasury Board, the Privy Council Office and the Office of the Leader of the Government in the Senate.

After debate, Further debate on the motion was adjourned until the next sitting in the name of the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C.

MOTIONS

The Honourable Senator Forrestall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Simard:

That, notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on Thursday, March 25, 1999, the date for the final report of the Special Committee of the Senate on Transportation Safety and Security be extended to November 30, 1999.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Kelleher, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare:

That, notwithstanding Rule 27(3), the Order of the Day for the second reading motion of Bill S-18, An Act respecting the Alliance of Manufacturers & Exporters Canada, a private bill, be now restored to the Order Paper for the purpose of reviving the Bill.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Forrestall for the Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams:

That the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications be authorized to hear the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in order to receive a briefing on their strategic plan.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

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With leave, The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (L'Acadie-Acadia):

That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday next, April 20, 1999, at 2:00 p.m.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):

Document entitled "Team Canada Inc. Achievements Report 1998-99".-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1110.

Report of the Columbia River Treaty Permanent Engineering Board to the Governments of the United States and Canada for the period October 1, 1995 to September 30, 1996.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1111.

Agreement for RCMP Policing Services made on November 24, 1998, between Canada, British Columbia and the Tl'azt'en and Nak'azdli First Nations, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5). -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1112.

Agreement for RCMP Policing Services made on November 24, 1998, between Canada, British Columbia and the Takla Lake First Nation, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5). -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1113.

Agreement for RCMP Policing Services made on July 9, 1998, between Canada, the Yukon Territory and the Liard First Nation, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1114.

Agreement for RCMP Policing Services made on November 19, 1998, between Canada, Manitoba and the Chemawawin Cree First Nation, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1115.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry

The name of the Honourable Senator Tkachuk substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Stratton (April 14).

Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs

The name of the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Robichaud (Saint-Louis-de-Kent) (April 14).

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